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Episode 117 of The SitePoint Podcast is now available! In this week’s show, our host Louis Simoneau () interviews the legend of web design podcasting that is Paul Boag (). We get to hear about the new seasons of podcasts Paul is doing which chronicle the method used while re-designing the website, from mood boards to the HTML5 coding and responsive web design.
SitePoint Podcast的第117集现已发布！ 在本周的展览中，我们的主持人Louis Simoneau( )采访了Web设计播客的传奇人物Paul Boag( )。 我们听到了Paul正在做的新播客季节，这些记录了重新设计网站时使用的方法，从心情板到HTML5编码和响应式网页设计。
You can download this episode as a standalone MP3 file. Here’s the link:
您可以将本集下载为独立的MP3文件。 这是链接：
Louis: Hello and welcome to another episode of the SitePoint Podcast. Today on the show I’m very happy to have with us another illustrious podcaster in the web design world, Paul Boag, hi Paul.
路易斯：您好，欢迎收看SitePoint播客的另一集。 今天，在节目中，我很高兴与我们一起在Web设计领域中崭露头角的播客Paul Boag，嗨，Paul。
Paul: Hello, good to meet you and good to be on the show, thanks for inviting me.
保罗：您好，很高兴认识您，也很高兴参加演出，谢谢您邀请我。
Louis: Absolutely, it’s a pleasure. I’ve been told by Patrick, who you know, to thank you for any influence you may have had for judging the .net Awards where the show won The Best Podcast Award, so his thanks to you. I didn’t have anything to do with the show at that point so I can’t really thank you for that directly, but yeah, so it’s good to have you on the show.
路易斯：绝对是一种荣幸。 帕特里克(Patrick)告诉我，谢谢您对您评选出该节目获得最佳播客奖的.net Awards可能产生的影响，所以他对您表示感谢。 那时我与演出没有任何关系，所以我真的不能直接为此感谢您，但是，是的，所以让您参加演出是一件好事。
Paul: It’s good to be on the show, and you guys have been going for a good length of time now.
保罗：参加演出真是太好了，你们已经花了很长时间了。
Louis: We’re getting there, we’re in the — what is this, I think this will be 118 or 117, so pretty good, getting there, not quite the venerable age of Boagworld.
路易斯：我们要到达那里，我们正在-这是什么，我认为这将是118或117，所以很好，到达那里，还不算Boagworld的古老年代。
Paul: Well, nobody’s quite the venerable age of Boagworld unfortunately.
保罗：不幸的是，没有一个人在Boagworld的古老年代里。
Louis: I definitely remember. I remember listening to possibly the first few episodes you did.
路易斯：我绝对记得。 我记得我可能听过您的前几集。
Paul: That must’ve been painful.
保罗：一定很痛苦。
Louis: (Laughs)
路易斯：(笑)
Paul: It was terrible to begin with; it was just me droning on in the mic without any company or any banter or anything that people have come to like from the show. We’ve actually put on the very first episode now, we got a health warning at the beginning
保罗：真是太糟糕了。 只是我开车时没有任何公司，戏ban或演出中人们喜欢的任何东西。 我们实际上已经播出了第一集，一开始我们就收到了健康警告
Louis: You’ve added in a little bit?
路易斯：您增加了一点吗？
Paul: yeah, we’ve added in a little bit saying ‘don’t listen to this’.
保罗：是的，我们再说一遍“别听这个”。
Louis: (Laughs) just in case anyone should stumble across it.
路易斯：(笑)以防万一有人绊倒它。
Paul: Exactly, yeah, we’ve told them to listen to the later episodes, but I think a lot of people still ignore it, it’s interesting.
保罗：是的，是的，我们已经告诉他们听后面的几集，但是我认为很多人仍然不理它，这很有趣。
Louis: So that brings me on to something I wanted to talk about, you guys have done something pretty interesting, you’ve decided sort of I guess retrospectively that the first 200-odd episodes of the show you did were the first season spread out over five years.
路易斯：所以这带给我一些我想谈论的事情，你们做了一些非常有趣的事情，您已经决定要回想一下，您表演的节目的前200集中是第一季五年以上。
Paul: That’s quite a long season isn’t it really?
保罗：那是一个很长的赛季，不是吗？
Louis: I think that might actually be a record, you should look into to phoning Guinness about that; you might be eligible for something. And then so you took a bit of a break and then launched into a second season which is sort of thematically different, do you want to talk a bit about that, it’s pretty interesting.
路易斯：我认为这实际上可能是唱片，您应该研究打电话给吉尼斯(Guinness)。 您可能有资格获得某些东西。 然后，您稍事休息，然后进入第二个季节，这在主题上有所不同，您是否想谈一点，这很有趣。
Paul: Yeah, I mean essentially after 200-plus episodes we were losing a bit of momentum, and to be frank the kind of the burden of doing a weekly show and having to do it every week was becoming problematic to us and our business because of the amount of effort that was involved with it, and I think there wasn’t the same passion that there was initially for it, and I think even listeners were beginning to take the show for granted, and we needed a change, we needed to do something different. And so what we decided to do, you know, we debated should we stop it entirely as our kind of time gone, there are all these other web design podcasts with people that are super-enthusiastic out there wanting to do stuff, so should we just step away from it completely, and we didn’t really want to do that just simply because we do enjoy doing the podcast a lot. So what we decided to do is move to a more TV-based approach to the show which is where we do a season of say six, eight, whatever episodes on a particular subject doing a particular thing, and then essentially what we do is we finish that season, we have a rest, we decide what we want to be the next season and then we repeat the process again. And so far we’ve done one season and we’ve just started the second, and it seems to be working, it makes the show feel much more focused, it makes it feel much more alive again, there seems to be renewed interest, so overall it feels like the right move to do. The other thing that we did with the first season which we’re not doing with the second season, we’ve produced a book that’s associated with that season, and I think that went down very well as well of having this kind of take-away that you can take away from the season as well. So, yeah, it seems to be working well, I’m enthusiastic about it.
保罗：是的，我的意思是，基本上说了200几集之后，我们失去了一点动力，坦白说，每周做一次演出，每周必须做一次这样的负担对我们和我们的业务都造成了问题，因为涉及的大量精力，我认为没有最初的热情，而且我认为甚至听众也开始将演出视为理所当然，我们需要做出改变，我们需要做一些不同的事情。 因此，我们决定做些什么，你知道，我们辩论着是否应该随着时间的流逝完全停止它，还有所有其他网站设计播客，这些人非常热情地想要做某事，所以我们应该这样做吗？只是完全脱离它而已，我们并不想真的只是因为我们非常喜欢做播客，所以不想这么做。 因此，我们决定要做的是转向一种基于电视的节目制作方法，即在这个季节中，我们说六个，八个赛季，不管某个特定主题在做某件事时发生什么，然后从本质上说，我们要做的就是在那个赛季结束后，我们休息一下，决定下一个赛季要做什么，然后再次重复该过程。 到目前为止，我们已经完成了一个赛季，而我们刚刚开始了第二个赛季，它似乎正在发挥作用，它使表演感觉更加专注，它使生活又变得更加活跃，似乎重新引起了人们的兴趣，因此总的来说，这是正确的举动。 我们在第一季所做的另一件事，而在第二季则没有，我们已经制作了与该季有关的书，我认为通过这种方式可以很好地降低收入。您也可以远离这个季节。 所以，是的，似乎运作良好，我对此很感兴趣。
Louis: That’s really cool, it’s an innovative idea and especially the idea of bundling it with a book; did you guys self-publish that or did you partner with a publisher for the book?
路易斯：真的很酷，这是一个创新的想法，尤其是将其与书籍捆绑在一起的想法。 你们是自己出版的还是与出版商合作的？
Paul: Yeah, we decided just to self-publish it. I mean it’s really interesting because I was a little bit unsure about what the best thing to do with that was. And so we’ve just kept it really simple for the first season and we’ve published an e-book associated with it. So it’s a fair length book, six chapters in it, and in that first season it’s about dealing with return on investment, how to build a website that generates a return on investment. And, yeah, we decided to self-publish it; interestingly I was of the opinion of a web designer they would want a physical book anyway, they’ll be quite happy with their Kindle or their iPad or their iPhone or whatever, but I got into an interesting debate on Twitter where everybody told me that actually we still want dead trees and that I’m entirely wrong on that, so apparently it was a false presumption, but there you go.
保罗：是的，我们决定只是自行发布。 我的意思是，这真的很有趣，因为我不确定这样做最好的方法是什么。 因此，我们在第一季就一直保持非常简单，并出版了与此相关的电子书。 因此，这是一本长篇幅的书，共计六章，在第一季中，它涉及投资回报率，如何建立一个产生投资回报率的网站。 是的，我们决定自行发布； 有趣的是，我认为是一位网页设计师，他们仍然想要一本实体书，他们会对Kindle或iPad或iPhone或其他东西感到非常满意，但是我在Twitter上引起了一场有趣的辩论，每个人都告诉我实际上，我们仍然想要死树，对此我完全错了，所以显然这是一个错误的假设，但是您去了。
Louis: It definitely appears to be the case here at SitePoint; we make a pretty good living on sitting in an office that was built on selling dead-tree books.
路易斯：在SitePoint上肯定是这样。 我们坐在一间出售死树书本的办公室里过得很好。
Paul: Absolutely.
保罗：绝对。
Louis: It seems to be something that people still like to have next to the computer and reference, especially when it comes to sort of instructional stuff for code or even any kind of I’m doing something on the computer which is where I’m working, but then when I want to refer to some advice or instruction about that I can turn away and look at something different. The new season of the Boagworld Podcast that just started, you’ve done one episode so far in the new season if I’m not mistaken.
路易斯：人们似乎仍然喜欢在计算机和参考旁边，尤其是涉及代码方面的指导性内容，甚至是我正在计算机上做的任何事情时。工作，但是当我想参考一些建议或指示时，我可以转而看一些不同的东西。 Boagworld播客的新赛季刚刚开始，如果我没记错的话，到目前为止，您已经在新赛季中完成了一集。
Paul: It depends on when this interview goes out (laughs), either one or two I’m guessing.
保罗：这取决于这次采访何时结束(笑)，我猜是一两个。
Louis: And so the new season is something a bit different, right?
路易斯：所以新赛季有些不同，对吧？
Paul: Yeah. So, season one which was building websites for return on investment, season two was meant to be client-centric web design; I was going to write another book and do a second season which was going to be looking at the subject of working with clients and how to get the most out of that client relationship, because I get kind of fed up with a lot of the negativity that flies around about clients. But, when I kind of actually sat down to write it, it’s a subject I’m really keen on and still really want to do, but I was kind of looking back at my body of work and going I don’t know I’ve talked a lot about web design and not actually do a lot of it, and I was feeling that I think the thing that’s always held me back with an audio podcast is it’s quite hard to obviously demonstrate things like code and design and that kind of stuff, so I’ve always intended to keep away from the really specifics of, I don’t know, how to approach design or get a mood boards or wireframes or code or anything like that because it’s visual and it’s hard to do. But what I’ve decided to do, and they’ve left me feeling like well everything that we’ve been doing is very theoretical, I’d like to do something that was more practical, more hands-on, getting our hands dirty kind of thing. At the same time I also had this problem whereby the Boagworld website is in desperate need of redesign; when you’ve got a website that’s about web design it should really be using cutting edge technology and all of the rest of it. So I decided to kill two birds with one stone and essentially rebuild the website as season two, so each episode within the season will tackle a different aspect of the process that I’m going through to rebuild Boagworld. So it’s starting at the very basics in episode one where we’re talking about what are my business objectives of Boagworld, why does the website exist, etcetera, episode two is going to be about target audiences, who are my target audiences, what do I want from them, etcetera, three is going to be a wireframe, four on kind of mood board look and feel, then we’re going to get on to design proper, we’re going to look at usability, accessibility, we’re going to get into responsive design, setting up a WordPress blog, dealing with content, all these different areas going step-by-step through the process right the way through to kind of analytics and AB testing and all that kind of good stuff. So, I’ve really taken this case study and following it through; I think this is going to be quite a long season simply because I think it’s going to take me quite a while to do this.
保罗：是的。 因此，第一季正在建立投资回报网站，第二季旨在以客户为中心的网页设计。 我打算再写一本书，并做第二个赛季，着眼于与客户合作的主题以及如何从客户关系中获得最大收益，因为我已经厌倦了很多负面因素飞来飞去谈论客户。 但是，当我真正坐下来编写它时，这是我一直很热衷并且仍然很想做的主题，但是我有点回头看自己的作品，然后我不知道自己我谈论过很多关于网页设计的事情，但实际上并没有做很多事情，我觉得我认为音频播客总是让我回头，这是很难明显地演示代码和设计之类的东西。东西，所以我一直打算避开真正的细节，我不知道如何进行设计或获得情绪板，线框或代码或类似的东西，因为它是视觉的并且很难做到。 但是我决定要做的是，他们让我感到我们所做的一切都非常理论化，我想做些更实际，更动手，弄脏我们的手之类的事情。 同时，我也遇到了这个问题，Boagworld网站迫切需要重新设计。 当您拥有一个有关网页设计的网站时，它实际上应该使用最先进的技术以及所有其他技术。 因此，我决定用一块石头杀死两只鸟，并从根本上重建了网站，作为第二季，因此该季中的每个插曲都将处理我正在重建Boagworld的过程的不同方面。 因此，这是从第一集的最基本内容开始的，我们在这里谈论Boagworld的业务目标是什么，为什么网站存在，等等，第二集将与目标受众有关，我的目标受众是谁，做什么？我想从他们那里等等，三个要成为线框，四个要在某种情绪板上进行外观和感觉，然后我们将继续进行适当的设计，我们将研究可用性，可访问性，重新进入响应式设计，建立WordPress博客，处理内容，所有这些不同领域都将逐步进行流程，直至进行各种分析和AB测试，以及所有类似的好东西。 因此，我确实进行了此案例研究并进行了后续研究； 我认为这将是一个漫长的赛季，仅仅是因为我认为要花很长时间才能做到这一点。
Louis: Yeah, that sounds like it’s a bit more involved than what you could fit in five or six hours of radio.
路易斯：是的，这听起来比五到六个小时的广播所涉及的要复杂得多。
Paul: Exactly. So, you know I think this one will go on a while, but I just think it’ll be much more hands-on and much more practical and already the feedback has been superb for it, and I think people are much more excited to see a website evolve. I mean what really kind of got me was being at Future of Web Design this year, and I was watching Mike Kus who is a designer here in the UK, and he gave a talk in which he played a video of him designing a website, it was obviously a time-lapse video to kind of compress it all down, but essentially you watch this website kind of evolve in front of you, and I find those the most exciting talks, the talks where you see somebody’s work, see somebody’s thought process rather than here’s a load of pretty pictures of stuff that I produced previously or alternatively here’s a load of theories; it’s seeing that stuff done in practice I think is so inspiring. But as a podcaster and a web designer it’s absolutely terrifying designing in the open like this and letting everybody see your work and see your thought process, it’s scary because people might be horrible about it (laughter), but I’m hoping not.
保罗：是的 。 因此，您知道我认为这会持续一段时间，但我只是认为它会更加动手，更加实用，并且已经得到了很好的反馈，我认为人们对此感到更加兴奋。看到网站的发展。 我的意思是说，真正让我感到高兴的是，今年我参加了《网页设计的未来》，我正在看英国的设计师Mike Kus，他发表了演讲，播放了有关他设计网站的视频，显然，这是一段延时录像，可以将其全部压缩，但本质上您是在眼前观看这个网站的发展，而我发现了那些最令人兴奋的演讲，这些演讲让您看到某人的作品，看到某人的想法过程，而不是这里的大量我以前制作的东西的图片，或者这里是大量的理论； 看到我认为在实践中完成的工作非常鼓舞人心。 但是作为播客和网页设计师，这样的公开设计绝对让人恐惧，让所有人看到您的作品并看到您的思考过程，这很可怕，因为人们对此可能会感到恐惧(笑)，但我希望不会。
Louis: Yeah, I’m sure you’ll do fine in it, and if anything the feedback you’ll get will help you out.
路易斯：是的，我敢肯定您会做的很好，如果有任何反馈意见，您会得到帮助。
Paul: Well that is what I’m kind of hoping really. I’m just being blatantly honest and transparent about the whole process, and even to the point where the show that I’m recording on Monday is about target audiences, and obviously everybody listening to the show is actually the target audience I’m trying to reach, and so I’m sitting there like talking about all the things I can extract from this target audience, you know, what I want them to do and how I want them to do it, and you’re thinking, bloody hell, should I be talking like this, but let’s go transparent, let’s go on this, let people see the real reasons we do these podcasts, that we do these things and the marketing benefits they provide, etcetera, and just put it out there and see how people respond. And I think normally people respond very positively to honesty, and people are already making some great suggestions about how I can improve the site and stuff that I can do, so I think it’s going to be a good process.
保罗：那是我真正希望的。 我只是对整个过程非常诚实和透明，甚至我周一录制的节目都是关于目标受众的，显然每个听过该节目的人实际上都是我正在尝试的目标受众我坐在那里就像在谈论我可以从目标受众那里提取的所有东西，你知道，我想要他们做什么以及我希望他们如何做，而你在想，该死的地狱，我是否应该这样讲，但让我们保持透明，让我们继续下去，让人们了解我们制作这些播客的真正原因，我们做这些事情以及他们提供的营销收益等，然后将其发布出来，看看人们如何回应。 而且我认为通常人们会对诚实做出非常积极的React，并且人们已经就如何改善网站和可以做的事情提出了一些很好的建议，因此我认为这将是一个很好的过程。
Louis: It will be really interesting. Have you come with a way of how you’re going to deal with the more I guess the bits of it that require more visual parts, so for the bits that are code or even the wireframes and design aspects it’s hard to convey that through audio, as you were mentioning earlier; what’s the plan?
路易斯：真的很有趣。 您是否想出一种方法来应对更多的问题，我想其中的一些部分需要更多的可视化部分，因此对于代码部分甚至线框和设计方面，很难通过音频传达出来，正如您之前提到的； 有什么计划？
Paul: I mean, yeah, you’re right, there are going to be some limitations. What I’m intending to do, I think, I’m still kind of playing with it because we’re at the early stages where it’s a lot of still theoretical, stuff like business objectives and target audiences, not a problem yet; I think when we get on to design then that’s where I think the show notes will become really important, I mean I’ve always taken an approach with podcasting where my show notes were essentially a blog post about whatever we’re podcasting on, so people will be able to go and see designs and mood boards and all the rest of it there. When we kind of get to the coding stage I don’t know, I mean obviously again the blog post could do that and you could show examples of code and stuff, I’m half toying with the idea of setting up a development site online somewhere, where people could actually see the website in bits, they can see the un-styled HTML, and as I add the CSS on top of it and all of that kind of stuff. I don’t know yet whether I want to do that or not, so I’m kind of still playing with ideas; it will be interesting to see what people think, and I’m sure they’ll let me know how they want me to do it.
保罗：我的意思是，是的，您是对的，会有一些限制。 我想做的是，我仍在尝试它，因为我们还处于早期阶段，仍然处于理论阶段，例如业务目标和目标受众，这还不是问题； 我认为当我们开始进行设计时，这就是我认为展示笔记将变得非常重要的地方，我的意思是我一直采用播客的方法，其中我的展示笔记本质上是关于我们正在播客的博客文章，因此人们将能够去那里查看设计和情绪板以及所有其他内容。 当我们进入一个我不知道的编码阶段时，我的意思是很显然，博客文章也可以做到这一点，并且您可以显示代码和内容的示例，我半half于在线建立开发站点的想法在某个地方，人们实际上可以看到网站的一部分，他们可以看到未样式化HTML，当我在其上添加CSS以及所有类似的东西时， 我还不知道是否要这样做，所以我还是在玩创意。 看到人们的想法会很有趣，而且我敢肯定，他们会让我知道他们希望我怎么做。
Louis: It will be interesting to get to play with a lot of the newer technologies that are becoming sort of available now, we recently did a book on HTML5 and CSS3, and it’s sort of shocking to see how much stuff has changed. Maybe as I’ve been working in books for a little while and you’ve been working more with clients and on the podcast, if you haven’t actually gotten your hands dirty with code in a little while, when you come back and, oh wow, there’s a lot of different stuff we can do now that we couldn’t do the last time I tried to do this.
Louis：可以使用现在变得可用的许多新技术，这很有趣，我们最近写了一本关于HTML5和CSS3的书，看到有多少变化已经令人感到震惊。 也许是因为我从事书籍工作已经有一段时间了，并且您已经与客户和播客进行了更多合作，如果您有一段时间没有真正被代码弄脏，那么当您回来时，哦，哇，我们上次尝试做不到而现在却可以做很多事情。
Paul: I know; it’s so exciting, even because I’ve already started building bits and bobs of the site, I’m trying to keep ahead of myself so that things that take longer aren’t going to hold the show back, if that makes sense. And already I’m starting to play with things like responsive design and some of the CSS3 stuff that’s going on, and looking at mobile, and to be honest it really excited me there’s just so much; I’m going to sound like an old man now but it’s so much easier than it used to be.
保罗：我知道。 太令人兴奋了，即使因为我已经开始构建该网站的零碎内容，我仍在努力保持领先地位，以免花费较长时间的事情不会阻止演出，如果那是有道理的。 而且我已经开始使用诸如响应式设计之类的东西以及正在发生的一些CSS3东西，并着眼于移动设备，老实说，这确实让我感到非常兴奋。 我现在听起来像个老人，但是它比以前容易得多。
Louis: (Laughs) Well, that’s definitely the truth. We used to spend, and this is going to actually kind of lead on to the other thing I wanted to talk about today, but we used to spend hours or even half a day messing with getting rounded corners on a flexible box to not break.
路易斯：(笑)好吧，那绝对是事实。 我们曾经花钱，这实际上是导致我今天要谈论的另一件事，但是我们过去花了几个小时甚至半天的时间弄乱了在柔性包装盒上弄圆的角，以免折断。
Paul: Yeah! And now it’s a line of code. So, yeah, absolutely really excited, I mean I do have the advantage, and one of the exercises I need to go through and did go through as part of the show is looking at my analytics and all the rest of it, and I’m in a spoiled position that I think that 10% of my users use IE, and out of that 10% almost all of them are on IE9, so, you know, I’m spoiled in that I don’t have to worry as much about kind of it working in older browsers, although I am going to try and address that just simply because otherwise I’m missing out on a big part of the problem that people face. But, you know that is just brilliant that you can shortcut so much stuff now by using some of these advanced selectors and advanced styling and all of that kind of stuff, and I’m loving responsive design, I just think that’s the coolest thing ever.
保罗：是的！ 现在是一行代码。 所以，是的，我真的很兴奋，我的意思是我确实有优势，并且作为展示的一部分，我需要做的一个练习就是查看我的分析以及所有其他分析，我m处于被宠坏的位置，我认为我的用户中有10％使用IE，而在这10％的用户中，几乎所有用户都在IE9上使用，所以，我很生气，因为我不必担心它在旧版浏览器中几乎可以正常工作，尽管我将尝试解决这个问题仅仅是因为否则我将错过人们所面临的大部分问题。 但是，您知道这真是太棒了，您现在可以通过使用一些高级选择器和高级样式以及所有此类内容来捷径这么多，而且我喜欢响应式设计，我认为那是有史以来最酷的事情。
Louis: Yeah, I was just going to say it used to be one of those things where you’d start a site and think, ah, you know, do I go fluid or fixed and fluid can look ugly sometimes and fixed who knows what’s going to happen if monitors get huge, and now you don’t even have to worry about it, you can just do it once and it can look good as much time as you’re willing to put into every sort of step along the way, it can look good at any resolution.
路易斯：是的，我只是想说这曾经是您开始创建网站时会想到的事情之一，嗯，您知道吗，我变的还是固定的，有时变的看起来很丑，而且固定的谁知道是什么。如果监视器很大，这将发生，现在您甚至不必担心它，您只需要做一次，它就可以花很多时间，只要您愿意将其投入到每一步中，它可以在任何分辨率下看起来都不错。
Paul: And you know I’m going to spend a bit of time thinking about potentially the future and what will come along and how you can layer in some additional, you know, if suddenly there’s a new resolution that comes out that everybody seems to be using for whatever reason, you can just layer that into the site and the site will adapt without having to rebuild it from scratch and all that kind of stuff. I’m also using another thing that I’m really enjoying using, it’s just making life so much easier, is rems; have you come across these, Jonathan Snook’s article on it?
保罗：而且，您知道我将花费一些时间来思考潜在的未来以及未来将如何发展，以及如何增加一些新的价值，如果突然出现了一项新的决议，每个人似乎都会无论出于何种原因使用，您都可以将其分层放置到网站中，这样网站就可以适应，而不必从头开始构建所有此类东西。 我还使用另一种我真的很喜欢使用的东西，那就是让生活变得更加轻松。 您是否遇到过这些，乔纳森·斯努克(Jonathan Snook)的文章？
Louis: I’ve read it but I didn’t really play around with it, I think I just sort of saw it in passing and thought hey that’s pretty cool and then got swept up with something else.
路易斯：我读过它，但是我并没有真正玩过它，我想我只是顺便看到了它，并认为嘿，这很酷，然后又被其他东西所吸引。
Paul: Yeah, so essentially the thing with REMs, you know, traditionally we’ve all been taught to use EMs as our font sizing, the way that we do font sizing, but the problem with EMs is they’re basically a pain in the neck because you get deeper and deeper because they kind of inherit their value from the parent and so it all gets very complicated working out what value you want in order to get the text a particular size and so on. With REMs what’s so great is they’re set from the root, so if you just set your font size on your html tag and then whatever you set relates back to the html tag, so if you set the html tag as 62.5% that makes one REM equal to ten pixels, so therefore if you want 14 pixels it’s the size of your text and it’s 1.4 and so on, so that made life so much easier, thank you very much Jonathan Snook.
Paul：是的，从本质上讲，REM就是这样，您知道，传统上我们都被教导要使用EM作为字体大小，这是我们进行字体大小调整的方式，但是EM的问题在于它们基本上是瓶颈，因为您越来越深，因为它们从父级继承了它们的值，因此弄清楚想要什么值以获得特定大小的文本，这一切都变得非常复杂。 对于REM，最棒的是它们是从根部设置的，因此，如果您仅在html标签上设置字体大小，然后将设置的内容与html标签相关联，那么如果将html标签设置为62.5％，一个REM等于十个像素，因此，如果您想要14像素，则为文本大小，为1.4等等，这样使生活变得更加轻松，非常感谢Jonathan Snook。
Louis: Yeah, that’s definitely something you run into. I was recently looking over someone’s CSS where because of that cascade of EMs that wound up with calculated values of .487 EM for a given size, and it’s just not very pretty.
路易斯：是的，那绝对是您遇到的问题。 我最近正在查看某人CSS，这是因为在给定大小的情况下，EM级联的计算值为.487 EM，这不是很漂亮。
Paul: No, absolutely not. So this made the world a so much simpler place. I mean it’s not supported by IE, but then you can fall back onto pixels and he talks about how to do that in the article as well which is kind of is a no-brainer really.
保罗：不，绝对不是。 因此，这使世界变得更加简单。 我的意思是IE不支持它，但是您可以退而求其次，他在文章中也谈到了如何做到这一点，这确实是理所当然的。
Louis: Yeah, that’s great. That does, what were saying earlier, leads onto the other thing I wanted to talk to about we were just briefly mentioning how some of the CSS3 stuff makes our lives a lot easier, for example the rounded corners and how you’re somewhat in a privileged position because very few of your users are on IE but you’re still going to try and address those things. One of the things we were talking about on the panel show on the podcast a couple of weeks ago was this little PDF fact sheet that your company Headscape put out, which was simply entitled Where are my Rounded Corners? And we thought it was a really, really cool little device because it really addressed all of the key sort of points that a client might come up with, if you’ve employed this sort of progressive enhancement in your website where you sort of say I’m going to do CSS3 rounded corners and if the person is using an older browser what they’ll see is a square button but I can still make that button look okay, and at the end of the day I’ve saved two or three hours of development time and there’s a number of reasons in here. So do you want to talk a bit about how that came about and what sort of the content and general philosophy of the fact sheet is?
路易斯：是的，太好了。 确实，正如前面所说的，这引出了我想谈的另一件事，我们只是在简要提及一些CSS3东西如何使我们的生活变得更加轻松，例如圆角以及您在某种程度上处于困境中。特权位置，因为您的用户很少使用IE，但您仍将尝试解决这些问题。 几周前，我们在播客的面板节目上谈论的一件事是贵公司Headscape发行的这份PDF小资料表，简称为“我的圆角在哪里？”。 我们认为这是一个非常非常酷的小设备，因为它确实解决了客户可能提出的所有关键问题，如果您在网站中采用了这种渐进式增强功能，您会说我我将要进行CSS3圆角处理，如果该人使用的是旧版浏览器，他们会看到一个方形按钮，但我仍然可以使该按钮看起来还不错，到最后，我已经保存了两三个小时的开发时间，这里有很多原因。 那么，您想谈谈这是如何产生的以及情况说明书的内容和一般哲学是什么？
Paul: I mean as with everything I do it came about for purely pragmatic reasons that we were getting frustrated by clients not getting it. There was also a problem that we were having whereby the designers got it, they wrapped their heads around it, they understood obviously the arguments behind it, but then there were project managers and account managers that were talking to clients and they were having trouble justifying it, and it was just — it was turning into a pain in the ass for our projects, and we were finding that it was becoming the single biggest issue that was preventing design sign-off, and we were having to then, you know, the designers would do it obviously the correct way, the way that they know is best practice, then the client would complain about it, and then we’d have to retrofit kind of the old hacks back into the website and it would waste more time and it was just horrible. So, I was in the process of putting together another document which was a document How To Get The Best Work Out of Working With Your Designer, which was a document we were client that essentially taught them how to interact on design, on websites and deal with some common issues that come up, which are published online as well, but I thought why not also do another very simple document that addresses this issue of rounded corners. So essentially what the document does it starts off by explaining what the issue is very simply, it shows some different examples of what it will look like in a more advanced browser, what it would look like in all the versions of IE side-by-side just to show the kind of subtleties of difference which isn’t just rounded corners it’s also drop shadows, it’s subtle formatting differences, that kind of stuff. Then what the rest of the document does in I think it’s about 10 very simple points, a paragraph or two on each point, it goes through different arguments to why this is the approach that isn’t beneficial to us as web designers but is beneficial to the client, right, and I think that’s really important; often we kind of argue things from our perspective, and to be honest why should the client give a monkey’s ass whether it’s best practice for us or whether it looks good in our portfolio or whether it makes our lives easier, it’s really about what benefits it provides them, so that’s what the document does. And the benefits include more time for what matters; if you waste time creating rounded corners, you know, when a project’s on limited time and budget effort is really better allocated to more important things such as understanding business objectives or user testing or something like that, so that’s one point. The second point is it’s designing for a growth audience but in time on older browsers such as IE7 or 8, ultimately it’s going to be counterproductive because those are going to be replaced by more capable browsers such as IE9, so why spend time and money developing for a shrinking market, so that was my second point. I talk about improved site performance; I talk about improving search engine rankings, which to be honest is a little bit of a stretch (laughter).
保罗：我的意思是说，就我所做的一切而言，都是出于务实的原因，我们对没有得到它的客户感到沮丧。 还有一个问题，就是设计师要得到它，他们把头缠起来，很清楚地理解它背后的论点，但是随后有项目经理和客户经理正在与客户交谈，他们在证明理由上有困难。只是-在我们的项目中，这变成了痛苦。我们发现，它已成为阻止设计签核的唯一最大问题，我们必须那时，设计师显然会以正确的方式进行操作，以他们所知道的最佳实践方式进行操作，然后客户会抱怨它，然后我们不得不将一些旧的黑客改造回网站，这将浪费更多时间简直太恐怖了 因此，我正在整理另一个文档，即如何从与设计师的合作中获得最佳成果的文档，这是我们作为客户的文档，从本质上讲教他们如何在设计，网站和交易上进行交互还有一些常见问题，这些问题也可以在线发布，但是我想为什么不编写另一个非常简单的文档来解决这个圆角问题。 因此，从本质上说，该文档的工作是通过简单地解释问题开始的，它显示了一些不同的示例，这些示例说明了在更高级的浏览器中的外观以及在所有IE版本中的外观，只是为了显示差异的微妙之处，不仅是圆角，它还是阴影，是微妙的格式差异，诸如此类。 然后，我认为文档的其余部分大约有10个非常简单的要点，每个要点有一个或两个段落，它通过不同的论点来说明为什么这种方法对我们作为网页设计师没有好处，但有好处对客户来说，这很重要； 通常我们会从我们的角度争论一些事情，说实话，客户为什么要给猴子一个屁，这对我们来说是最佳实践，还是它在我们的投资组合中看起来不错，或者是否使我们的生活更轻松，这实际上是它的好处提供它们，这就是文档的作用。 好处包括为重要事项花更多的时间； 如果您浪费时间创建圆角，您就会知道，当项目在有限的时间和预算上投入时，实际上可以更好地分配给更重要的事情，例如了解业务目标或用户测试等，这就是重点。 第二点是，它是为不断增长的受众群体而设计的，但是随着时间的推移，在旧版浏览器(如IE7或8)上最终会适得其反，因为这些浏览器将被功能更强大的浏览器(如IE9)取代，所以为什么要花时间和金钱进行开发对于萎缩的市场，这是我的第二点。 我说的是网站性能的提高； 我谈论的是提高搜索引擎排名，说实话，这有点困难(笑)。
Louis: Yeah, you draw it on from the performance to the potential tenth of a percent increase in search rankings.
路易斯：是的，您可以将其从性能上提高到搜索排名可能提高百分之十。
Paul: But clients love that kind of stuff. If you tell them it improves their search engine rankings then great, but let’s be honest, in theory it should make a difference, how much of a difference it makes I don’t want to really dwell on that but I put it in anyway, a little bit naughty of me, so we talk about better search engine rankings, future-proofing your website, easy maintenance and updates, how it opens up more design possibilities. And then right at the end of the document I talk about — I deal with the major issue which is that people come back, ‘well my audience will hate it, they’ll hate the fact that it looks shitty in their browser. And I kind of emphasize that it’s not going to look shit in their browser, you know these differences are only subtle. And the other thing I think clients do is, you know, because you have to explain this process to them, you have to show it to them in different browsers, so then they say oh well it looks better in Safari, and oh it’s going to look crap for the majority of my users, because they’re comparing it to the other version. The thing is, and I think what clients forget is obviously a normal user doesn’t open it up in IE7 and then open it up in Safari and do a side-by-side comparison, so I kind of talk about that and explain that as well. So, it’s just a really short little handy document, only a few pages long, that you can give to a client and it’s deadly simple, and I’ve released it under creative comments so people can do what they want with it and use it I suppose however they want really.
保罗：但是客户喜欢这种东西。 如果您告诉他们，它提高了他们在搜索引擎中的排名，那么好了，但老实说，从理论上讲，它应该有所作为，它有多大的差异，我不想在此进行详细介绍，但无论如何，我有点调皮，所以我们谈论更好的搜索引擎排名，对您的网站进行过时验证，易于维护和更新，以及它如何带来更多的设计可能性。 然后，在我谈论的文档结尾处，我谈到了一个主要问题，那就是人们回来了，“好吧，我的听众会讨厌它，他们会讨厌它在浏览器中看起来很烂的事实。 我要强调一点，在他们的浏览器中看起来不会很糟，您知道这些差异只是微妙的。 我认为客户要做的另一件事是，因为您必须向他们解释此过程，必须在不同的浏览器中向他们展示它，所以他们说哦，在Safari中看起来更好，哦，这将会对我的大多数用户不屑一顾，因为他们正在将其与其他版本进行比较。 问题是，我认为客户忘记的显然是普通用户没有在IE7中打开它，然后在Safari中打开它并进行了并排比较，所以我来谈一谈并解释一下也一样 因此，这只是一个非常简短的小巧文档，只有几页长，您可以将它提供给客户，而且非常简单，我已经在创意注释中发布了它，以便人们可以随心所欲地使用它并使用它我想他们确实想要。
Louis: Yeah, that’s really great. And like we were saying on the podcast, I can definitely see how this would be a really useful tool, I would definitely provide it to anyone that I was building a website for if I was using those techniques, and I don’t see why I wouldn’t because I don’t feel like spending half a day in Photoshop messing with drop shadows.
路易斯：是的，那真的很棒。 就像我们在播客上说的那样，我绝对可以看到这将是一个非常有用的工具，如果可以使用这些技术，我一定可以将其提供给我正在建立网站的任何人，但是我不明白为什么我不会，因为我不想在Photoshop中花半天时间弄乱阴影。
Paul: Exactly. I mean the other thing I would say, I think the most important thing to do, which is what we’re doing, is to give it out at the beginning of the project before it becomes an issue because once somebody — I mean this is a bit of psychology really, but once somebody states a position like oh I’m unhappy with this design, it’s very hard for them to back down without you actually making some form of change. However, if you give out this document right at the beginning of the project you’re saying, look, this is a common issue, here’s the arguments for it, and that makes it very difficult for a client to then come back over it because nobody likes to ask the dumb questions, you know, if something’s a common issue they don’t want to be the person to ask it. And also you’ve already addressed the issue up front so they’re not kind of wading into something and then not being able to back down over it, so we’ve just started giving it out at the beginning of every project essentially so hat people know up front about these kinds of issues and can explain them.
保罗：是的 。 我的意思是我想说的另一件事，我认为最重要的事情，就是我们正在做的事情，是在项目开始之前就将其发布成为问题，因为一旦有人—我的意思是确实有点心理学，但是一旦有人提出类似我对这种设计不满意的职位，在没有您真正进行某种形式的更改的情况下，他们很难退缩。 但是，如果您是在项目开始时就给出这份文档，那么您看，这是一个普遍的问题，这是它的论据，这使得客户很难再返回该文档，因为没有人喜欢问愚蠢的问题，如果某事是常见问题，他们不想成为问这个问题的人。 而且，您已经提前解决了这个问题，因此他们不会陷入某种困境，然后又无法退缩，因此，我们基本上是在每个项目开始时就将其发布出来，人们预先了解这些问题并可以进行解释。
Louis: So that’s one of the things that I was going to ask, is this something that you’re doing with just about all clients now? Are there any projects where based on the analytics or based on the site audience you can see that it’s a disproportionately large number of IE users and in those cases you opt for the more traditional techniques, or you just jettison that completely?
路易斯：这就是我要问的问题之一，您现在正在与几乎所有客户一起做这件事吗？ 是否有任何项目基于分析或基于站点访问者，您会看到它是不成比例的大量IE用户，在这种情况下，您选择了更传统的技术，或者只是完全抛弃了它？
Paul: No, we haven’t jettisoned it completely; we do take everything on a case-by-case basis. This is our kind of — this is our default approach, okay, so when we submit a proposal it makes the assumption we’re going to take this approach. If when the client then engages us we look through their analytics and we conclude that actually they’ve got a lot of IE7 users or whatever, we then go back and explain the pros and cons whether we take this approach or not, we discuss it with them, if the client then decides well actually they do want and it’s appropriate for them to have rounded corners in IE7 then we’ll happily do that because we’ve looked at the analytics and it seems appropriate, but we will charge an additional charge for it, okay. So we’ve kind of — it’s a decision we can make based on the analytics, but all of our proposals and our costings are based on the fact that we won’t be doing that because in most cases these days it’s not relevant.
保罗：不，我们还没有完全抛弃它。 我们会根据具体情况进行处理。 这是我们的一种-这是我们的默认方法，好的，因此，当我们提交提案时，它会假设我们将采用这种方法。 如果当客户与我们进行互动时，我们仔细研究了他们的分析，得出结论，实际上他们有很多IE7用户或其他用户，那么我们回头解释一下是否采用这种方法的利弊，我们将进行讨论。与他们一起，如果客户然后决定了他们确实确实想要的，并且让他们在IE7中圆滑是合适的，那么我们会很乐意这样做，因为我们已经看过分析并且看起来很合适，但是我们将收取额外的费用收费，好吧。 因此，我们有一个选择-我们可以根据分析来做出决定，但是我们所有的建议和成本核算都是基于这样一个事实，即我们不会这样做，因为在大多数情况下，这已经不相关了。
Louis: Yeah, outside of perhaps sort of Intranets.
路易斯：是的，也许在内联网之外。
Paul: Yeah, there are always a few exceptions.
保罗：是的，总是有一些例外。
Louis: There always will be. Do you find that — I was just speaking recently I think with Jeremy Keith on the podcast, and one of the things he was talking about with having sort of a similar conversation about oh it’s so cool you can do all this stuff really easily now and it feels really fun to get in there and play with code, and I think it was him, podcast listeners will correct me if I’m mistaken and I’m thinking of someone else, who said that it wad doing a lot of his designs in the browser now, and I think that sort of that’s addressed in here, but is that something that you guys are doing as well where you’re kind of moving away from comping everything in Photoshop and starting to work directly in the browser for some designs?
路易斯：永远都会。 您是否发现–我最近刚刚在播客上与杰里米·基思(Jeremy Keith)交谈时，他谈论的话题之一就是关于类似的话题，哦，太酷了，您现在可以很轻松地完成所有这些工作，进入那里玩代码真的很有趣，我想是他，如果我弄错了，播客听众会纠正我的，我在想别人，他说这会做很多他的设计现在在浏览器中，我认为这里已经解决了这一问题，但是你们正在做的事情也很不错，您可以摆脱在Photoshop中编写所有内容并开始直接在浏览器中进行某些工作设计？
Paul: Yeah, it varies from project to project. I’m really torn over this because I do feel that designing exclusively in the browser in my experience and the experience of what I’ve seen at Headscape, it can lead to quite uninspiring design because I think inevitably whenever you do design you’re limited by the tools that you’re using, whenever you’re doing art you’re limited by the tools you’re using; you know if you’re doing an oil painting it’s going to look different to watercolor, it’s inevitable. And I think that coding directly in the browser does have with it some limitations, we rarely start in the browser. What we tend to do is we tend to start in Photoshop or whatever, actually increasingly we tend to start not even doing a website (laughs), I know that sounds ridiculous, because oftentimes you get so hung up on you’ve got this wireframe which has got all these boxes on and all the rest of it, and you’ve got to worry about navigation and search, all the rest, it kind of limits your creativity, so often we start designing something completely different like a poster. We did this recently on a charity website that we’re doing, and once you got the poster then we kind of compromise it based on the wireframe and all of the other things that make it practical, but it is incredible how that transforms a design into something quite amazing. That’s where we start, however, we very quickly move into the browser to the point now where we don’t even ask the client to signoff on a design concept that they haven’t first seen in the browser. So we get roughly the direction right, the client’s happy with the approximate direction, we maybe only mockup one or two pages, and then we quickly move into the browser and do the rest there. But even that is not always the case, I mean some of our clients because they’ve got such a clearly defined look and feel we just move straight into the browser right off, and actually with Boagworld, with the redesign that I’m doing on Boagworld, the way that I’ve approached on that I’ve done some mood boards to set the kind of feel that I want for the site, and then I’ve got very detailed wireframes, quite designed wireframes but still wireframes, and the combination of those two I feel is enough for me to now leap into the browser and design the rest in the browser. So there’s no specific way of doing things, we’re not tied to doing in specific ways, there are pros and cons to each way, I think it very much depends on the individual project, and also the individual designer, it doesn’t surprise me for a minute that the guys at would jump straight into the browser, that’s kind of looking at the style of websites that they produce that seem very appropriate for them, but asking somebody like Mike Kus, who I mentioned earlier, to design straight in the browser would just destroy his whole approach and his whole style for things. And I think oftentimes with issues like this we become very entrenched, designing in the browser’s the right way, designing in Photoshop’s the right way! Actually I think it’s personal taste and that’s fine, you do whatever’s right for you. We kind of float somewhere in the middle and change our minds every five minutes as to which is the best way to do things, you know, that’s fair enough too.
保罗：是的，因项目而异。 我真的为此感到痛苦，因为根据我的经验以及我在Headscape中所看到的经验，我确实认为专门在浏览器中进行设计可能会导致非常令人鼓舞的设计，因为我认为在您进行设计时不可避免地会受所用工具的限制，每当您做艺术品时，都受所用工具的限制； 您知道如果您正在做油画，它将看起来与水彩画不同，这是不可避免的。 而且我认为直接在浏览器中进行编码确实有一些限制，我们很少从浏览器开始。 我们倾向于做的是我们倾向于从Photoshop或其他任何东西开始，实际上我们越来越倾向于甚至不开始建立网站(笑)，我知道这听起来很荒谬，因为通常您会挂在这里，这是因为线框它具有所有这些框以及所有其他框，并且您还需要担心导航和搜索，所有其他这些都限制了您的创造力，因此我们经常开始设计与海报完全不同的东西。 我们最近是在一个正在进行的慈善网站上进行此操作的，一旦您获得了海报，我们就会根据线框和所有其他使其实用的方式对其进行折衷，但是如何改变设计却令人难以置信变成了惊人的东西。 从这里开始，但是，我们很快就进入了浏览器，直到现在，我们甚至不要求客户签署他们在浏览器中首次没有看到的设计概念。 因此，我们大致得到正确的方向，客户对大致方向感到满意，我们可能只制作了一个或两个页面的模型，然后我们快速进入浏览器并在其中进行其余操作。 但是，即使并非总是如此，我指的是我们的一些客户，因为他们拥有如此明确的外观和感觉，我们马上就直接进入浏览器，实际上是与Boagworld一起进行重新设计在Boagworld上，我采用的方法是制作一些心情板来设置所需的网站感觉，然后我获得了非常详细的线框，设计合理的线框，但仍然是线框，我认为这两者的结合现在足以让我跳入浏览器并在浏览器中设计其余部分。 因此，没有特定的做事方式，我们不局限于以特定的方式做事，每种方式都各有利弊，我认为这在很大程度上取决于单个项目，也取决于单个设计者，让我感到惊讶的是， 会直接跳到浏览器中，这是在看他们所创建的网站的样式，这些网站似乎非常适合他们，但我要求像我前面提到的Mike Kus这样的人来设计直接在浏览器中只会破坏他的整体方法和整体风格。 而且我认为，经常遇到诸如此类的问题，我们变得根深蒂固，以浏览器的正确方式进行设计，以Photoshop的正确方式进行设计！ 实际上，我认为这是个人喜好，您可以做适合自己的事情。 我们有点漂浮在中间的某个地方，每五分钟改变一次主意，这是做事的最佳方法，这也很公平。
Louis: Absolutely. A lot of that comes from the fact that it’s fairly recent that we have the flexibility to do that, designing a whole website in the browser even five years ago would have been laughable because you couldn’t do anything, you couldn’t get your text, you couldn’t get any of the stylistic elements without going back to Photoshop.
路易斯：绝对。 大部分是因为我们有足够的灵活性来做到这一点，即使在五年前用浏览器设计整个网站也很可笑，因为您什么也做不了，您做不到。 text, you couldn't get any of the stylistic elements without going back to Photoshop.
Paul: Yeah, absolutely.
Paul: Yeah, absolutely.
Louis: Yay, us!
Louis: Yay, us!
Paul: Yay, the future (laughter).
Paul: Yay, the future (laughter).
Louis: Absolutely. Alright, well it’s been great talking to you and getting your read on a lot of these things. I know we had a lot of fun talking about the ‘where are my rounded corners’ document, I like the title of it, ‘where are my rounded corners’ because I can totally imagine someone charging into the office and saying where are my rounded corners, even though that’s never going to happen, but it’s a beautiful image of this angry client holding a sheaf of papers in one hand charging into the door (laughter).
路易斯：绝对。 Alright, well it's been great talking to you and getting your read on a lot of these things. I know we had a lot of fun talking about the 'where are my rounded corners' document, I like the title of it, 'where are my rounded corners' because I can totally imagine someone charging into the office and saying where are my rounded corners, even though that's never going to happen, but it's a beautiful image of this angry client holding a sheaf of papers in one hand charging into the door (laughter).
Paul: Yeah, they do. It’s where you receive a fax where they’ve printed out your website, have you ever had that?
Paul: Yeah, they do. It's where you receive a fax where they've printed out your website, have you ever had that?
Louis: I’ll have to admit I have not.
Louis: I'll have to admit I have not.
Paul: We’ve had that. They’ve printed out the website, they’ve scribbled notes on it with a circle around the corner going ‘where’s my rounded corner’ then they’ve faxed it through to you.
Paul: We've had that. They've printed out the website, they've scribbled notes on it with a circle around the corner going 'where's my rounded corner' then they've faxed it through to you.
Louis: Clash of civilizations there.
Louis: Clash of civilizations there.
Paul: Absolutely. I like that way or wording it, yeah, different cultures isn’t it?
Paul: Absolutely. I like that way or wording it, yeah, different cultures isn't it?
Louis: Clearly. It’s been a blast talking to you, Paul, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this stuff. I wish you all the best of luck, we’ll be tuning in to the new season of Boagworld to see how the design progresses, I’m looking forward to seeing the new design, seeing what kind of cool stuff you do with responsive web design and CSS3.
Louis: Clearly. It's been a blast talking to you, Paul, thanks so much for coming on and talking about this stuff. I wish you all the best of luck, we'll be tuning in to the new season of Boagworld to see how the design progresses, I'm looking forward to seeing the new design, seeing what kind of cool stuff you do with responsive web design and CSS3.
Paul: (Laughs) No pressure then.
Paul: (Laughs) No pressure then.
Louis: And you know all the HTML5 audio you’re going to be using for your podcast.
Louis: And you know all the HTML5 audio you're going to be using for your podcast.
Paul: I haven’t even thought about that!
Paul: I haven't even thought about that!
Louis: I’m looking forward to that, it’s going to be a lot of fun, I’ll try it out on my mobile device and see how that works. I’m just trying to lay out the pressure here.
Louis: I'm looking forward to that, it's going to be a lot of fun, I'll try it out on my mobile device and see how that works. I'm just trying to lay out the pressure here.
Paul: You are; you are absolutely. You’re terrifying me. You’ve got to remember I haven’t coded anything for flipping ages, the pressure here is immense. I’ll tell you what we are doing is we’re getting a load of different people on the show, I’m hoping to get Ethan, for example, he came up with responsive design and that kind of stuff, it should be good.
Paul: You are; you are absolutely. You're terrifying me. You've got to remember I haven't coded anything for flipping ages, the pressure here is immense. I'll tell you what we are doing is we're getting a load of different people on the show, I'm hoping to get Ethan, for example, he came up with responsive design and that kind of stuff, it should be good.
Louis: Fantastic. So for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know already I can tell them that they definitely should, Boagworld is sort of the grandfather of web design podcasts, and we’re sort of one of the later generation I guess. So where can people find you this season of Boagworld, your books?
路易斯：太棒了。 So for anyone who's listening who doesn't know already I can tell them that they definitely should, Boagworld is sort of the grandfather of web design podcasts, and we're sort of one of the later generation I guess. So where can people find you this season of Boagworld, your books?
Paul: It’s all at , and you can get to everything from the podcast to the books to the whole lots on there, and if you go to it, if you’re listening to this a long time in the future, hello future, but also hopefully there will be a new spangly site there as well for you to enjoy.
Paul: It's all at , and you can get to everything from the podcast to the books to the whole lots on there, and if you go to it, if you're listening to this a long time in the future, hello future, but also hopefully there will be a new spangly site there as well for you to enjoy.
Louis: And if you’re listening to this and you’re like responsive web design, so 2010.
Louis: And if you're listening to this and you're like responsive web design, so 2010.
Paul: Oh no! Don’t say that (laughter)!
Paul: Oh no! Don't say that (laughter)!
Louis: Alright, thanks so much, Paul, it’s been a pleasure.
Louis: Alright, thanks so much, Paul, it's been a pleasure.
Paul: Yeah, thank you for having me on.
Paul: Yeah, thank you for having me on.
Louis: Alright, and have yourself a good day, I know it’s pretty early in the morning there.
Louis: Alright, and have yourself a good day, I know it's pretty early in the morning there.
Paul: I’ve got my whole day ahead of me. Yippie!
Paul: I've got my whole day ahead of me. Yippie!
Louis: Awesome. Alright.
路易斯：太好了。 好的。
Paul: Bye.
Paul: Bye.
Louis: Bye Paul.
Louis: Bye Paul.
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